Joost de Valk on Building Yoast SEO, Open Source Curiosity, and Life After The Plugin

Seriously, Bud is brought to you by Omnisend. Omnisend is a top choice for email and SMS marketing on WordPress. Perfect for Woo Commerce shops. Easily connect with customers and send out awesome campaigns every day. We'll be back in a bit to tell you about our other friendly sponsors. Hello, my name is Bri and welcome to Seriously Bud, a podcast featuring an unexpected conversation with someone from the WordPress community. And now it's time for our host, my dad, Bun Krauss. Thank you, Bri. You know, I had so much fun last week speaking with Balfo Malloy that I thought I would do this all over again. and I'll be back at the end to give you my thoughts about this week's episode. It's number 98. So, here we go. Yost Devulk, welcome to Seriously, Bud, you have no idea how long I have been waiting to talk to you. So, let's start out with somebody we know in common, and that's Taco. Taco Venshot. Did I say that? Yes, it's hard. Okay. Yeah, it's very hard. So, you and Taco are childhood friends now. Not childhood, but we've known each other for a long time. We actually went to the same high school. Actually, the same high school that my brother went to and that Omar, the former CTO of Yoast, went a few more people. I've known Taco for I'd seen him before. He's been working with us now for for 13 years, but we weren't really friends before that. I knew of him, but that wasn't. But you guys grew up in the same town. Yeah, we did. We grew up around the same larger city, Na. And I grew up in a very shitty little town. He did too, but one. And yeah, I mean, we we went to the same school. We have we share a lot of background. Yes, I know. And I know you're good friends today. And in fact, one of the reasons why I'm interviewing you is because first I met Ma through Taco and then I met you through Ma. you know how this works and I did know that you guys were friends from way back. Yeah. No, so yeah, we've honestly he started working at Yoast I think in 2012 or 2011. So it's so we've been working together for a long time. Yeah. And not I shouldn't say surprisingly I should really say not surprisingly there's a large WordPress community in the Netherlands largely because well I don't know if it's just us. There's just qu there's quite a few people who have been active in the WordPress community for a long time. People like Remus. I don't know if you've ever had Rem. Of course, Remus, of course. I love that guy. I was I think one of the organizers of the first word campel together with Remus and a few other people. I I'm trying to think of the names, but it's been so long. So, I it's not just us. I think it helps that we grew a relatively big company out of it. So, that has definitely done something. Yeah, for sure. Because I'm always amazed at how many people Anamika Boallet is somebody that has been on the show. Yeah, there's lots of people that have just come out and I I have never been, believe it or not, to the Netherlands. I know you're missing out. Yeah. Yeah. I I will eventually get there. It's there's a lot of fun stuff to travel to in the world. So, I don't So, I Yes, but I've heard Amsterdam is beautiful and I should see it. You should definitely also see the other parts of the Netherlands. I Amsterdam is very nice, but it's also very touristy. And there are other parts of the Netherlands that are just as nice and not as touristy. Okay, which reminds me, should I come to Now I'm going to say it wrong, V. Our small little our small quaint little town that has three WordPress companies. Wow. Amazing. Yes and no. It's fun. It's quaint. It's relatively small. Name the larger city we're close to where my that high school we talked about earlier is slightly bigger is actually the oldest city in the country. So it's an old Roman city. Oh. So yeah. No, there there's a lot of fun stuff. There's a lot of cool stuff to go around and look at. I'll bet. I'm sure there is. And it sounds I'll have to go. Do you have any siblings? Any brothers? I have a brother and a sister. My brother used to actually work at Yos 2. He was actually its CEO for a while. Was he the C? Did you say CO? CEO. After after MA and Uhuh. And my sister lives on the other side of the country. We don't see each other very often. And your parents, what did your parents do? So my father worked in you call that? Oh god. This is what sometimes my English leaves me and this is one of those moments. Turns out it's not my native language. No. So in in in international Yeah. How do you say that? In helping poor countries around the world basically development. Did he work for an NGO? Yeah, for NOS's. Yeah. Okay. And my mother was a relational therapist. So she helps people stay married or leave each other without too much fighting. Yeah, that's And were was she trained? Yeah, she was. I think she was. Funny enough, both of my parents were by background. They both studied theology, which a large part of my family did, which is why I started studying that at some point, too, and then utterly failed at ever doing anything meaningful in university. That reminds me, I've heard that you did go to university for a little bit. A tiny bit. Really? I like what? Well, no, I was subscribed for much longer. It didn't do much. No. Yeah. I don't really fit into traditional learnings. So when you left university, what happened? Um I started working for a Java development company as an account manager at first but also doing some coding. Then went to a hosting company, was a sales manager there for a while. Then Maria got pregnant with our first kid. I was relatively young. Now hold on. I got to hold on. I have to interrupt you. She got because I know the story. She got pregnant two years before you got married. Uh, yes. Yes, we are progressives here in Okay. But I think it's really interesting that that seems to be custom in the Netherlands that you have your children first and then you get married or is that No, I don't think there's necessarily a custom either way. I don't think getting married is a requirement here in any way. We are not a rulesbased society. Yeah, we are. We don't go to church. We and most people in the Netherlands don't. So it's not and yet those things don't matter here as much. Is this why children in the Netherlands are the happiest children in the world? Is this why? Um I don't really know to be honest. I do think that they have a pretty good life. We tend to not try and pressure them too much. I think and at the same time yeah I don't really know. These are the questions that you should ask my wife who's actually a sociologist and I don't I've answered all this stuff. If I want to hear what Oh, we did talk about it. I don't think she me. No, I they kids in the Netherlands have a good life. I will say that. Now, speaking of something that she and I did talk about and I have to get your side of the story here is how did the two of you meet? Now, I know her side. What's your side? This how did we meet? This was at the European Youth Parliament where I was a committee member. I think I was chair my own country thingy and she was a one of the chairs presiding over the meeting and yeah there was there were sparks and that's what I want to know and then we met later like years later we met again and uh well she saw a picture of you that was taken at the conference at the European Union the model and she says he's a nice boy and then you oh yeah you remembered You rem we met and then you remembered who she was and she was totally freaked out by that. Oh yeah. I had definitely not forgotten her. Yeah. No. Yeah. No, it's it's not a story I tell daily, but it is Yeah, it is. No. Yeah. So, that that is what it was. And it's it was it was it's always been good. Yeah. It's been romantic. It's been good. She said that she had never disclosed how the two of you met on my show, so I have to bring it up again. when we when I interviewed her, I had just had to bring it up in here. She said, "Ask Yos what he thinks of that story or his side." That that was Yeah. I think I think we tell pretty much the same story. I wouldn't know why. And did you start dating at a certain point you dated? Yeah. So, a couple years later, we rem, right? And then we started dating. And what did her parents think of you? It's such a long time. Yeah. I've always had a very good relationship with their parent with their parents. So, I don't really think that there Yeah, that I don't think there was much trouble in that regard. Yeah. Speaking of trouble, when you were in high school, I'm just trying to picture like what you would be like in high school. Were you annoying? Tell me. Annoying. In what way? Were you annoying? Arrogant. Talkative. Really? Did you have a lot of friends? No, I had a good amount of Yeah. It's Yeah. I know. I think I I was probably annoying to my teachers mostly. Were you inquisitive? Did you ask a lot of questions? I liked to debate. Well, that's interesting. That I don't know that I was too inquisitive besides that. Now, I jump back and forward. So if you think there's any like rhyme or reason just whatever comes up like any conversation. So you worked for this Java development company and you were learning Java I'm assuming way. Yes. And then when did the transition come about? How did it come about? Say WordPress that's for me. There must have been. So there was a point where I moved from that Java company to a hosting company. at that hosting company. They gave me a Mac because everyone who worked there had a Mac and I needed to start working and I'd been dabbling with some code for quite a while. I'd been coding since I was 12. And when I got that Mac, I started playing around in my first open source project. This was a project called Open Darwin, which is still like the BSD layer underneath Mac. I started being active there and from there later on also in the WebKit community which is the rendering core of Safari which later turned into Chrome as well. And in WebKit I became a committer so I I was fairly active in it. I wrote hundreds of tests for the CSS3 test suite. Did you really? And because I was doing all that work I got commit there and I was writing about that on this blog. Well, you say CSS3. Now, I have to ask you, is border radius a a that's CSS that's CSS two? Are you sure? I think it's three border maybe you're right. I thought it was a progressive enhance. Yeah. And there was more and more stuff added. So, box shadow and things like that were three. Yeah. Yeah. I was testing that. I was writing previews for that on my website called CSS3.info, which was my first WordPress site. Wow. And as I was working on that website, I was finding out about, hey, I I'm writing all these things. I want them to be found in search. So I was learning about SEO a bit. Then I got a new job at an SEO company as an SEO. And then I started applying what I learned at that SEO company and what I learned from my own testing to those WordPress sites and started building SEO plugins. And here we are today. Amazing, right? Who would have thought? You did the right thing at the right time. Yeah, I do think we entered the WordPress plug-in market at exactly the right time. Yeah, absolutely. It was when there was only I want to see was there, but there wasn't really much else. So, tell me a little bit about Now, I actually wrote some questions out for you, which I never do because I just don't like to do that. But, I'm going to jump you up to today. What are you doing today? I know you sold and tell me a little bit about what you do. Oh, before you do, Ma says she has three jobs. She does. Okay, I know what they are. How many jobs do you have? Hey there. We'll get back to the show in just a moment. Seriously, bud is made possible by Big Scoots. When it comes to WordPress hosting, there is no reason to compromise on service from your provider. Expect more with 247 365 live experts. Big Scoots redefineses managed WordPress hosting service levels for clients, partners, and agencies. Learn more by visiting www.bigscoots.com and chat with a team member now. And by Pressible, they make managed WordPress hosting simple. Your sites load fast, stay online, and you get 247 expert support from people who actually know their stuff. No downtime drama, no endless tech headaches, just hosting that works. Whether you've got one site or hundreds, Pressible keeps things smooth and secure so you can focus on your business. Check them out at pressible.com/bud. And finally, by thew.orld. A great way to see who's in the WP world and what they are up to. Find out at the wp.world. That's right. It's the wp.world. And let others know what you're up to, too. Now, let's get back to the show. I think the reality is two, maybe three. So, all right. When we sold, we started investing in other companies. So, we've invested in a few WordPress companies, too, like E equalized Digital. may know Amber and Chris Hines Adim from Veto Pelleg. Okay. Yeah. Hatchack from Oliver Sild. So there's quite a few WordPress companies there. Extendify. You might have had either Chris or Archery. You might have met. I don't think I have. So we made quite a few WordPress investments. I managed those. Now I say manage in air quotes because honestly we don't manage those companies. the managers of those companies managing but we talk I talk to those founders relatively regularly some every other week some every month some every quarter so it it differs but that's what I do uh to to a degree we have more investments outside of the WordPress space in total we have about 15 portfolio companies then we are working on progress planner which is a lot of different things at the same time But it mostly is a lot of thoughts about what would be a good website and how can we help people maintain a website well over time. And we've recently been working a lot also on how can we get people that have just gotten a new website to actually make it a bit better. And that's what Taco that is what Taco works on most of the time. Uh that is what I spend a lot of my time on too. And then my other job which oh I know what this is being I'm going to give you is being secretary of my local football club. Oh, I didn't know that one. Okay, I'll give you a four. I'm about to give my fourth. All right, the fourth one is what Ma told me, which is you are the cab driver for my children. That is I am absolutely also a cab driver. Yeah, that is a lot of time in a parent's week. I wouldn't want to call that a job, but yeah, it does take a lot of time. Do you make them sample for lunch and stuff like that? Oh my good. What kind of thing? Very simple ones. Very Dutch. It's not It's Do you Are do you cook at all? You cook too. What do you make? Different thing. Just And I like to say that I don't cook. I prepare food. Yes, I know what you mean. That's really Yeah, you prepare food. Okay. Yeah. And you travel a lot. I know you do, right? Is this all for work or is there any pleasure? There's definitely also pleasure travel in this. As we record this, I'm flying to Milan this weekend to go to a football match with my two eldest sons to see a Milan play Inter Milan, which is a very cool match to be able to attend. So, there's definitely travel for fun, but there's also Right. Okay. definitely work travel. Yeah. And I this year so far it's been okay as in I've not been away yet but Cloudfest is coming up soon. Cloudfest and then we'll be at work camp Europe and so there's definitely some some work travel here and there too. Yes. Yeah. But those are really close to where you live. Those are really close. Krakow is good to our flight. All right. So what do you consider a long flight? A long flight for me is a flight to the US, but other than that, so I've done that two or three times last year and and not this year and not anything planned this year either. To me, it's anything over 5 hours is getting long. Yeah, I can see that. Two hours is short. 5 hours you're American like that. I think for Dutch people, everything over an hour is a long time is far away. Yeah. So, I'm going in April to Hawaii through San Francisco. So, I'll be in San Francisco 2 days, Hawaii for 10, back to San Francisco where I'm going to see a lot of WordPress people for lunch and stuff like that. And then I'll come back to New Jersey where I live. 3 weeks later, it's Prague, Krakow, Paris, Portugal, and then home. Sorry, no Netherlands that one. But yeah, but I love being in Europe. am European. Okay. I'm Eastern European. And I've recognized that the older I've gotten, my my my grandparents, they all came from Eastern Europe. Where in Eastern Europe did they So, doesn't that make me one of them, my grandmother, she I forgot the name of this the city or town, but she came from Poland? It's not crackout. And it's interesting. She came from a very educated, well educated, I think they were all doctors. Many of them were doctors. They all died within two or three weeks. They all ate poisonous mushrooms. She was the only one that survived. Yeah. That's about And then my grandfather, hers, he came from Eastern Europe. They all four grandparents. I only knew the maternals. They all came from Eastern Europe. So I have a very strong attraction to Eastern Europe. It's the first time I've ever I've been in Western Europe all over, but I've never been behind the iron. I I mean it's lovely. So you're going to love it. I like it. And if you have time to spend around that, there is definitely quite a bit of good touristing to do there, too. The salt mines are amazing. I've heard not fun, but a very impressive visit is which is just a We're going Yeah. I I will say I I went there four or five years ago and I is it takes a bit of time to recover from. I knew you're going to say that and that is definitely on the agenda. It happens to be the day right before I just couldn't do it any other way, but I knew that's going to be a bit of a problem. This is the interesting thing is Awitz is you probably know this is the largest tourist attraction if you will in Poland. I know it's crazy thing to say but and yeah I've never been. No, I think it's good to go. So, I do think it's very important that people see it and I totally agree and it's maybe even more important now with a lot of stuff in the world, but it's but it's not Yeah, it's not an easy thing to recover from. That is There's no way that that won't be in my head during World War Camp Europe because I'm going to see it right before and you just don't like Yeah. No, forget about it. Yeah. It's not going to go that way. Yeah. Yeah. But I couldn't schedule it any other way. It was that way or forget it. And I wanted to go. I should I think it's important. Yeah. And then Paris and then Portugal. And we're going to stop in Porto. And you know who lives in Porto? At least one person that I'm sure you know that Bob D. Yes. Where is the Portuguese word? The Portuguese WordPress community is a lot of lovely people. Yeah. There is those are all beautiful cities. Perto is lovely. Paris is amazing. I mean, you could spend two weeks in Paris and not have seen anything. Well, yeah, it is. So, there is a lot to do there. Yeah. Yeah. I'm really looking forward, like I say, any minute I'm in Europe, I'm doing better than being here. Okay. Just take it for That's all I can tell you. All right. That's as far as I want to go. Yeah. No, that's as far as I want to go with all that. This is what I asked Ma, and it's an awkward question, but I have to ask it anyway, which is when did your children realize that you guys were famous? How did that come about? Now, I've heard her side of the story, but you I hear your side, obviously. A I still don't consider myself famous. I know you don't. I know you. I think the good thing about living in a small town like we do is nobody here has a clue as to I'm sure it also means that fame is very relative and I I like that I like to if I were in an environment where everyone would think I'm famous all the time I think I'd go nuts. Oh, me too. It would be crazy. And I'm not famous period. Yeah. I It's like Yeah. It would inflate my ego too much. It just goes to show how myopic all this is. We live in this little world. We do. Yeah. And every and in your case, everyone really does. People know me, but everyone knows you or of you. And I'm just hot stuff. No, you're not really blinking. Not to the big world now. You are. Okay. You're more because you broken out of the WordPress world into the larger tech sphere. Okay. You have. So, you're more well known. You're also known outside of WordPress. I I believe you, but I I don't Yeah, but honestly, it's not something I strive for. And it's not that I dislike it. It's It's like I don't think it makes me a better person. And I think that All right. Does it make you happier? Seriously. But I I if you walk around a work camp and people want to take selfies with you but are too afraid to talk to you, which happens, does that make me happier? Not necessarily. Do I take the picture with them? Yes, of course, because I would be an arrogant schmuck if I didn't. I like talking to people and figuring out what they do and being helpful. I don't necessarily Yeah. don't really think I can do anything with the hero stuff. Yeah, you can't take yourself on these. No, exactly. That's the thing. It's I'm just another guy doing his thing. Yes, you are. It turns out you are just another guy. This is really cool. Mico was right. People that come on my show, they're just another person. Yeah. And it turns out everyone is. No, not no. It's Yeah. And I love them all. Okay. They're all I've had 99 guests or whatever and they've all become friends or many of them have. and they're just wonderful people that I feel really honored and blessed to know. Who wouldn't give almost anything to be a part of this? That's how I look. And especially at my age when everybody's retired and watching TV and all they do is go to restaurants and play golf. That's not what I want to do. That would be boring, too, right? It doesn't interest me. How lucky am I to talk to people like you and so many other people that are on the frontiers of AI and oh my lord are you kidding? I really I just pinch myself and say how this is really luck beyond imagination. Yeah. So it's and it also turns out you that those people that maybe people consider famous are also just people. Yes. I've become when I first started out or when I would go I in the early days of being in the WordPress community I would be a little intimidated by you but now I'm not I know everybody is just a person not a big deal and the intimidation helps no one and the pedestal by the way also helps no one okay now I'm naturally I don't want to say shy I'm not really shy but what's the word introverted what about you. I'm probably more of an introvert than an extrovert. I will say that things like word camp Europe tired the hell out of me. You went to Greece, right? You were in Greece because your son spoke. He was the youngest speaker in Athens. I was the oldest speaker in Athens. Yeah. No. Yeah. So that's three years ago now. He was 16 at the time. But it was exhausting. We had to go to Santorini to recover for three years. You have such a tough life. That's cute. Don't tell anybody. What are you talking like that for? You're right. You caught on there, yo. All right, stop. Say anything. I'm very fortunate in many ways with family and friends and what I do. And but what were we? Yeah. So, I know after Crackow, it's going to be I'll be in Paris, but it's going to be tough to recover because there's so much that goes on in these things that it's it is overload. Yeah. And and honestly, overload and then doing Paris is another bit of sensory overload at the same time. But yeah. Yeah. One of the reasons why I started this podcast was because after Word Camp US in 2023, it was just so much overload. I said, "Geez, I've got to stop and I really want to get to know name the person Cammy McNamera or whatever whoever it was better." I get that. And then in one second I was in Uber and in one second the whole idea of this podcast was born. It was never should I do this, should I do that? No, I just wanted to have conversations with people in the WordPress community. Not focus on their tech story but on their life story because that's what I felt I was missing at word camps. And it turns out other people felt that way too which but I when I started out I didn't really care if anybody listen. Now I do. And I didn't care if I got a sponsor. Now I do. But I just wanted to have fun and talk to people. That was it. That was just as simple an idea as it gets. And a very good friend of mine came up with the name of the show. Seriously, Bud, I like it. It's a good It's a good concept. And I do think it's good to for people to also see the other side of people that they interact with. Yeah. I think if I I know this is a pipe dream maybe, but if it does anything to help strengthen a fractured community, your words that and it is a fractured community. If it does anything to help that, good. That can't hurt. All right, I have to go one last question. I got to go back to the kids finding out. Are we Nepo babies? That's what they ask. I know too much. I know you're smiling and all. I don't mean to embarrass you, but I think the answer is yes. Okay. Yes. I now which reminds me I know that you purchased a home in Tuscany, right? And where is this home at? Is it in the middle of the forest somewhere that nobody knows where it is? Up on the hill close to Luca. And how often do you get there? Mostly because of the kids holidays, etc. That I know. You're waiting for the kids to get grow older. I I I mean I would literally love being there 3 to 6 months out of the year. I It is my happy place. same place. Yeah. And do you spend a lot of summertime there? We we do and we don't in the in this in the like July, August is very hot there. I actually like it most myself in April, May, and in September, October. The spring and fall are awesome there. It's it's a nice temperature. It's beautiful. The people are lovely. The food is amazing. It is. And it's slightly more relaxed than life in the Netherlands is in many ways. It's good fun. So, it sounds like this is the grand plan for the future. It It is definitely a place where we're going to spend more time over time, but our youngest is 11, so we have a ways to go before he leaves the house like off to university, etc. And your oldest I forgot who is he doing a he's not doing tech is he he's studying tech technical policy management and actually working as an AI engineer. So yeah he's in the he's smack in the middle of all this. We actually talk about work a lot on like how we solve different the we we're solving the same sort of problems regularly. Is he have any inclination to do anything with WordPress? I don't think he does anything with WordPress right now for his work. He can do some stuff. So he maintains some websites on WordPress, etc. He can do so. I don't think he is necessarily the biggest fan, but it's also like he doesn't have a big use case for it. Yeah. Why why do this? Yeah. Yeah. All right. One last I promise you this is the last one and that is your name. Okay. Let's talk about your name because I understand the pronunciation has gone in circles or come full. So my name is Yoast as the company right people call me most of the times when they when they don't when they don't speak Dutch actually my first name is a very common first name. So there are a lot of yoasts. So, it's it is a very common thing and it's I named the company Yoast, of course, which in hindsight I wouldn't necessarily recommend people do because well, mostly be because it's very when you let go of the company, it's very still you even though it's Yeah. And people probably still think that it's sometimes they do that don't know. Sometimes we do and in some ways it will always be as for as long as it exists. Yes. Well, your name obviously. And was there any talk about naming it J O O S T or you'd say no. No one was ever going to get that right. No. So I the I actually didn't come up with this myself. Yoast.com was my blog before it became a company. I came the blog name was because I was at a conference in Sweden together with pretty well-known guy in the SEO community called an Fishkin and oh yeah him and I had not met at that time and we so we meet there for the first time and he goes how do I pronounce your name? Is that toast with a Y? And I said yes. And then I turned around and bought Yos.com because I thought this is actually this is a pretty good brand. Then so it's from there it's history and then I we needed to give the company a name and ma suggested hey why not just call it Yoast. Now, when I was teaching your plug-in back in, oh, I don't know in 2010, 11, 12, whatever it was, and people would say, "How do you pronounce it?" Of course, I said, "It's Yoast like a tea, just like toast." And yeah, I was there. I was laboring away in New York City talking about your plugin and everybody should use it. I Yes, I finally got my thank you out of you. 14 years later. I am also still amazed at how far it went. It because to some degree these things you can't plan, right? You create something and no, you would have not known. And which is also why the whole hero worship thing that comes with it sometimes is a bit weird because it's not like I I went out and planned to do this. Of course not. Of course you didn't. I think we did pretty well afterwards, but this was just a hobby project that exploded and the marketing and the everything just it all just clicked, right? It just all had a the branding, the whole thing just felt it was wonderful and it still is. Okay, we're at the end. I'm I'm going to ask you, who do you suggest I have on a future episode? Oh, I can't wait to hear this. Seriously, bud. A lot of options have gone through my head. So, do you want one suggestion or a couple from you? I'll give you as many as you'd like. I you get extra special treatment here, but I and I honestly some of these she might have had. So, that's So, I would recommend Kareem Maruki, who I've worked with on fair and a lot of other things and who's become Okay. Oh, yes, that's right. Yeah. And if I if I need Yeah, by all means. Yes. He's become a friend. Okay. And does he have a good story? That's a very good story. A very good story. He's Italian American, trained as an architect, runs a runs an agency. It's all great architect. I like No, he's the real deal. And then if you're out in Europe, you should definitely at board computer. I'll happily introduce you or by email to Oliver Sil, who is the CEO of Patch Tech. Yeah, I would like that. Oliver is amazing. He's he's an incredible founder doing a lot of fun stuff. I will see you at checkout. I'm going to see you. Absolutely. Yeah. Or do I have to book? No, no, no. I'll just I I honestly were Do you just walk around? Just walk around. Funnily enough, at CloudFest, you'd have to book time because that's always super busy. It's big. Word camp is mostly a community conference and not as much a business conference. It seem Yeah, I agree. Anybody else besides Oliver Sills? There are so many fun people. Have you Have you had Amber Hines on the show before? Oh, yes. I knew. See what I was what I was going to see. Is he going to name anybody I've had? Of course. I guess I've had Amber Hines. Yeah. And you've invested in her. Yeah, we did. Yeah. And yeah, I really just really like what they stand for, what they do. I'm sure you did. Yeah. And then there are definitely more. Another is someone who's actually from the WordPress community and Polish too is Archer, one of the founders of Extendify. He lives in US too. But yeah, he'd be fun to talk to. There's so many good the WordPress community is just full of I know. Yoast, I've been doing this for two years. I' This is about my hundth interview or so. I'm going to have to live another 20 years to get to everybody because there's so nothing wrong with that. There's no shortage. So seriously, bud, you have to stay alive for another 20 years. That's the plan. At the rate I'm going, I don't know if I can make it another day, you know, in 20 years. Well, you've gotten through this one, so how bad can it be? Yes. Oh, listen. Before I go, I have to tell you. Do you have any idea how lucky you are to be? Trust me, I do. No. Oh, yeah. No. I She is an amazing woman. And she sure is. We are an amazing team. And every time that somebody goes, "Hey, but you built Yos." I'm like, "No, we build Yoast." Yes, I can see that. And I just I love her. Yeah. So do I. Which is why I I shouldn't really, right? I shouldn't say it that way. I don't want my wife to get any ideas. I want you to get any ideas. I'll be fine. You know what I mean. She's just tremendous. I cannot wait to meet both of you. It'll only be a It will be very soon. Yes. Thank you for having me. All right. Thanks, Yos, for doing this. I really It's been amazing. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, I didn't know that Yoast lives in a small town in the Netherlands. It's called Vhan where he lives with his wife Ma and where no one knows about the Yoast SEO plugin. I love that. And so does he. that he ever so briefly was subscribed to university where he utterly failed and his name Yoast also known as Yoast the person or Yoast the company depending on circumstances is a common Dutch name and that he was born in a town by the name of Naen so is Taco and it's the oldest city in the Netherlands and finally Why the SEO plugin? Because he made a website about CSS and he just wanted to figure out how to get found on search. Did you? Until next time, thank you for your time.